Part 1: Interview with Sysman Motloung political analyst form the North West University speaking about developments surrounding the national assembly speaker Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula she's accused remember of taking bribes amounting to about two point three million rand from a supplier in the department of defence
that you is the know our time now top of one in season and we'll bring motloung our political north analyst from the west university will go into us around this issue of the speaker of parliament maphorisa nsfas nqakula but then richard you're also calling in just to talk to us about the speaker you're calling in from start the show welcome to case how are you sir how are i'm okay you doing i'm fine katleho you know i was nearly straight away these guys when talk about the water in hammanskraal you know because i was nineteen seventy nine a2 i was a student there in temba at a technical school in temba we an issue of had water i don't remember drinking myself water there then nineteen eighty nineteen ninety-four eight to i was running a business factory was there my in temba water the issue of was still not right i was not drinking motor at my factory but in case any but i was a student in seventy-nine nineteen and i was a student number ja technical and nineteen eighty eight i opened factory i a moved from garankuwa because a bigger i needed factory than i found it in until nineteen ninety four forty five years so or or ja maybe more somewhere somewhere around ja ja but now there in temba the the confusion the is like this there is a section i think it's rockwell better they had water even during that time used they i to go that side to better get the water so what's not coming same from the pipeline you know something like that so that is why some people will say the story no of water in temba this or is like the story of water our section but on the water was very very very bad even till now no not right the water is but in any case let leave that okay me so ja to let me go this story of a of parliament i will also give an example on that issue um i hear people say that's evidence up but to so far as i try listen i just to hear that the only that pushed thing the the hawks to go to to her house and whatever whatever is because of the statement given by by ladies the other up to so far i hear any did not other evidence whether what they at her house found whatever whatever whatever now let me put this story that's the case this nineteen eighty-seven like when i arrived at i found a home letter that says a report at a police station in temba eight tomorrow o'clock and bring the witnesses because of hit the and run that happened in nineteen eighty-four now i had to drive to themba then i took my my my my witnesses the statements then were taken from all of us then the police said alright we see have to the the motor vehicle that was used to you'll remember that time we were paying the third party whatever see so they wanted to the disc if it was the party third was paid then after seeing everything the bakkie in they track how everything was they then they said no you we have to arrest because this is a hit and run then i said to the police look case this will not stand in case in court because this is not a hit and run case you are you are you are you are opening a wrong case i don't say i don't have anything to answer but you open if a hit and run case it won't stand in court try something maybe don't i know what you must write because the accident after i took this hospital guy to the and and all this so after for a long shooting time discussion this they decided not to arrest me i even told look them you wrote a letter you left the letter at my house data must report the police station at i came i the witnesses came with we gave this the statement now even if you can say you want at the police station me tomorrow be i will still there now why arrest me so this is another maybe case maybe with this story of a nqakula but i'm waiting to the whole understand thing you know i don't want to jump and say no arrested he must be ya i mean what i front of me have in in terms of a report that was written here is that in some of the evidence that was presented here that was really when you look had been at it they intending to charge her with corruption over time they even gave her to hand that opportunity herself over and she hand herself did not over here they are saying here they are that alleging that she took about you know more or less thirty five a hundred and thousand dollars you wig know and a in bribes over three years period she was a defence when minister are saying and then they here that really the prosecutors hearing they claim that they were not happy about a how then really she she conducted they followed herself up here in allegations terms of the here and the judge with here was faced some of the issues pertaining to led to where what we find ourselves here court papers submitted in for the prosecutors hearing here the say that nqakula received around mpesa received now around eleven payments totalling thirty a hundred and five dollars thousand dollars between december sixteen twenty and july twenty nineteen she sought bribe another of a hundred and five thousand dollars but that wasn't paid this prosecutors is what the have you know in front of them on one commission in february twenty nineteen nqakula mabesa received more than fifteen thousand dollars a wig and at a meeting at main the country's international airport o r tambo they also saying here are that really at it when you look this the person who allegedly paid the bribe was not named here but this lady you know who was the facilitator everything of else that has happened in between the one that gave evidence is and she's now turned state witness because they've been investigating her and been hot off her heels some time for quite and and and and you look also when at it i think before else anything if you're seeing all of this huge like this it says to you and that go answer for yourself law in the court of is nothing that you've done wrong then you know more and it to say or less um prove whatever they is are presenting here fake that was not an sms it was not my saying the one phone i am not that met with o this person at r tambo at this time there was no you know um i feel a lot already like there's that they have on her and also i'm seeing saying here that they are that the prosecutors went oh saying that maphorisa they are nqakula has denied wrongdoing had said and that she would cooperate with authorities after they seized her home in johannesburg hoped they after they searched her home in johannesburg and seized evidence last week so meaning that maybe probably there could be something that found there they that could add onto the case around this hence why it was even to that whole up you know search and seizure there was an issue around to be arrested know she's going in twenty four hours she's behind no bars no confusion no she's not behind bars the statement a n c releasing a fikile mbalula saying i've just the spoken to speaker she's at home you know with her family she's not arrested whole because of the confusion around we have a evidence depth of here and then why the why isn't question is this person arrested so far okay now you can you can understand where my situation i say i did not hear any other things besides the fact that they from that heard but in any case jump let me again to this story of russia don't know what i how our time is know we can go you ahead so let touch this me story of russia you know again in the story of russia i'm surprised russia when was apologise thing i i it don't get i don't get it because now what rata said was we black lawyers the way we do things how the way things we do now i wish i wish this was pushed thing further so that i can understand what the black lawyers association with will how they write to to whatever the judicial commission service or whatever and then so that can hear we or see what will letter be their heads with their letter heads and say not from black lawyers association now only if the complaint they have is about black rata says that then how do they use black lawyers the association letters and right complaint about blacks i think what they wanted forth to bring here and my understanding around it to say was that if a conduct conduct is a it does not matter if it's or less done more by a black lawyer a white or lawyer and maybe have qualified a rata could it to say could have i mean this been done by any white lawyer any lawyer or black lawyer point in but at this time i was just disappointed by the behaviour or or what has happened this around particular black lawyer because when at it then you look there was an opportunity him to explain for himself but i think didn't even want to he explain take it there to explain himself hence he just basically apologised to say you know i was of context taken out and everything else and let's move on because it was opening another worms can of and bringing forth an element of race in the judiciary and then we're going how then now to scrutinise around judges and there there are more or less relate the way they with black lawyers compared they relate to the way with white lawyers of in the court law i think that is basically i understood it how here richard well in any case we understand this thing maybe we differently and we are here we are resisting to differ and maybe see things differently but give us a wakeup they call as as maybe black lawyers to say you need to get your house really in order because maybe is a pattern here there that judges are picking up that is tantamount to be problematic a later stage at ja it can know be you i can also give you there an example because one of the to pretoria lawyers took me high court some years ago then when the matter was to be debated in court every time he sent his clients that i'm sick today at the end to stand i have up and tell the court man this this lawyer said he is representing man this but now this guy is now representing the lawyer for three years we are waiting for these lawyer to come to court what is really happening so that at was an issue my my my table so by that time you can see maybe that this issue the that was an issue me in front of i hear you mona richard very thank you much for the call okay thanks calling richard us from hansard thabiso you're calling from davidson you us also want to speak about or want to talk about the about speaker speak the speaker welcome thabiso to the show muller hello hello how are you are you okay how doing that thank you to speak i want to the government officials especially speaker the i want to give you another version just think of all this government many officials thinking bribes were something they could take on normal life a like metro police as things as criminal offence like in such a way know you we've seen is normally it can't normalised be we can't allow it to be normalised because also i think it was one the previous caller of said even fifty rand um even ten thousand rand five thousand rand is still a bribe compared to the million billion needy a bribe is still a bribe still a bribe it's still is think a bribe i also in the court of law will still face the we same fate find if they out what you know when thabiso know you you issued out a bribe took a bribe or you one rand and a million it was rand i when think more or less you look at it the crime still the same is but look at i at the way look things i like i mean you are not the same are same because not the the law doesn't see that us in way you know i don't have money she has money but watch not be and that must the case mona because now because i don't have money it means um basically at a disadvantage here thabiso because i can't argue i can't request for a docket say i want and this to see what is in docket before you more me or less are so i can give you that opportunity to arrest me you know what i i can't hand myself mean over until what is i see in this docket have you ever seen something like that before thabiso it just new for was me okay check let me check record that they have against her all the bribes or that she has taken and the charges that she is awaiting doesn't and she see the bigger picture herself and she sees innocent you know the whole of africa innocent south until proven guilty um and way that the she can like even interdict after an and stand again against the n a p you know is like discussing and you because me wouldn't stand against a the m p we would be arrested a the law from court a court order nene arrested would be now we'll be sleeping in the station police ja they'll be saying i must prove it mona that it was not me know what i you mean i must prove you know prove it it ja that innocent before presumed guilty and everything else in between will face you the might of the law there and fend for yourself there cases are others whose have even dragged on for years know where you they were wrongful accused it's here but because of the whole thing you have to prove yourself you know innocent before guilty proven and then you'd see the the the state wanting to push here to you guilty then find so that the case can stand here where do you see this one ending here thabiso do you think get away with it she's going to should get away with it you know what i feel i bursary actually case you know she will fall sick when it's time for her to you cape town and should get a home arrest think one of the things i there that she mentioned in her heads of arguments something i saw coming out of the courts around how her age should be considered here she's old you know what i mean and and and so we should take that into consideration and ja ja is treated with golden gloves this case in even in her job she just asks for leave she goes with golden she is treated gloves and doesn't have to to the country account and yet to come the speaker of to parliament but now that's case on its another own dismissed so you know let's let's let's wait and see all of how then these things pan out will hear today we about it but it doesn't like she's really look really going to more less win this one or because i saw really that when you look at what was pushing the state they are saying in their papers here that maphorisa nqakula doesn't have a right not to be arrested and can't and that they be seen to be dictated to a suspect by on how and when to her matter enrol as this would create a dangerous precedent because i can wake up tomorrow i wake up thabiso and tomorrow and say no we then we can't be arrested i got my peace and i did the same thing you know what i mean so there's no way that i'm going to allow to arrest me you guys i mean we saw with the speaker of parliament it so so maybe it might it means be something somewhat of that is a a new or a norm or something that we see that happening this particular in regard mona thabiso according to eskom the going high like they are prices raising the on the eskom and things like that and it's on the first of april thinking just about the april fool's um they are raising you know electricity at i'm this point where getting load shedding almost every even day and are going to go of at a level eleven eight just been think we have never in level eight if we lose about three million in just take one our guest is i see ready for us very much thank you for the call thank you sharp sharp thabiso very calling us there from davidson you also want to talk about joseph nqakula mabuza but let me bring in our guest and then we'll just a further season morning welcome good to the show a good morning and returns to the listeners janho very much thank you for giving us your time a long day in court matter yesterday we saw the even standing down to three o'clock the afternoon in and we here are seeing the speaker really really you know more or less taking it all the way to try by all means to stay this arrest us a sense of your just give is understanding of what happening here and if indeed we just see basically the i d or p a having the n enough evidence to prosecute her is she slashing on straws with kid is she treated gloves what is your understanding of the law pertaining to how then try by one can all means to block her own arrest ja i think what is happening here is somebody who says that an arrest is really imminent and they are trying now to play up the victim you know it seems like she is playing on you can't be searching my home because charges on me and she starts again to play on looking her affidavit at on her stature in society and her role in parliament as a speaker where i'm this important person significant figure and what you are doing is going to impinge on the credibility and dignity of the institution divert so our attention as if like the person who has been pursued here is the parliament so she has actually equated herself with parliament if you arrest me you are you are touching a parliament which i found absurd to be and if not absurd it is is how it self importance she has become this and self importance is not imagined is think something i she has done admitted culturally the a in n c she knows this big she's from family politically and she has been given disrespected the party the treatment been that she's receiving is that so she is now playing on her senior it in the party and somehow saying or maybe it she even had not because she is saying it's it but understandable she's untouched abil because she is of who and maybe who is married to in terms of the history high in the struggle or in the movement the anc of because that is somebody who doesn't expect want to to be arrested and for me it is an undertone but similar harmony you know with what zuma was more like saying he when was being arrested to say what did i do and and it is somebody is starting she to go that kind of did i do what you you know that you are wrong but we are expecting you'll of a be protected so it is then she is saying as in her letter this is embarrassing moment o'connor see that as well is somebody it was not expecting maybe this to happen it's a surprise for her gonna she was get away with it maybe so it's been happening long for so long that because i mean subsequently she thought it was not normalised it in her head that this is exactly how things should fair here looks like but it there is enough evidence against her in this particular regard we also saw search the and seizure thereby her place whereby the n p a then is seemed to believe that they could more more or less get even evidence to solidify their case against they struggled her a bit there get into that could not her ndaba which is what had there we but also when what you look at has been happening over time around issues of corruption around maybe to the let's even take it politics of the day step aside around this there by the and how a n c then was that confusion on her arrest and we saw fikile mbalula to say coming out i've spoken to the speaker she's at home there's no arrest there's nothing and he even there then went on to say if the step aside then apply we'll have to then it will have to apply on members that are here and we then see her more or less trying to fight narrative this and everything else of her being in this particular corrupt regard politically really how is this panning how out for her me ja for it definitely is something of a demise you know once these charges come through you are really and she is fighting should now the court declare you cannot address and this one if the court says you cannot this one and address n pay comes to lay a charge will be arrested and now you have to does it mean to go back the npa has to court again say courts should the reverse that declaration or address this you cannot one so she a legal is asking for immunity and you know and behind hiding the courts and this is something we will find funny where people steal and and and do all manner of of crimes of of or whatever and then when to face they have the music they they know law now they the the law and hide the law behind we used the metaphor they in the scourge hide african way ja she when a man was what was being beaten by another man for him to find to protection there hide in the skirt of a woman and then you know the guy could not attack him so this is what she says she is looking for that cover of the law is she entitled to the docket mean i that also was something bizarre somewhat of a one for me to say i've never actually had someone actually taken say this route to show me what you've got so can give you a sense i of how this matter should then fare and how you should treat me or i should treat you this particular in regard the state papers saying in the here that she doesn't have a right not to be arrested can't and and that they be seen to be dictated to a suspect by on how enrol and when to a matter would as this create a dangerous precedent so see them saying you can even to the courts if you more or less that allow for to happen this then you're creating somewhat bigger problem of a for us in the future because katlego can come through here and say can't arrest you me maphorisa did it so no way that i'm there's to even going to allow you touch me you are you know more not gonna or less come into house and approach my my my number and you're not gonna you know what i mean can come through and say i but maphorisa it you know did zuma did it mama it and everything did else now and since it is in law it based because caleb would stand the lawyer would go and quote it to say a stating case maphorisa in in off versus state you know you know should be released should be entitled to you know this affidavit and and the like is common practice this here ja i think i've some seen people commenting it seems like is doing what she is trying to emulate maboyane where you interdict an investigation into yourself but like i say more she's even asking for evidence which is something very dangerous you haven't charged been you haven't been arrested you haven't in court appeared and you want access to witnesses statements that witnesses these were also witnesses could be vulnerable as well so what her doing you see like all of the these things if court were to admit it is setting a precedent mp because it is somebody who like i said who is taking chances her on senior it in the party and is this that she thinks so it society as is in well she thinks so go society she is so important as well that understand people or she has to be putting this fight up but when we are looking this at which is an ordinary member society to us according and shouldn't be receiving a any treatment bit better than any of us so this creates that elementary for those money that have they will have opportunity to manoeuvre kind of legal this scheme issues as long they have money for as it but if a cautionary person you're the police simply come you arrest you to and you are done or if they come to search your house search your house they and whatever comes you after it really cannot do anything you you'll even push around you know what is those inequalities and what i also saw even is how she premiums medical age no medical everything gas and this will lead to some the script already see playing out goes to by the time she prison we'll hear somewhere or you know this person is sick and this element number you don't know what is happening is an element there of spirituality um where seen you've criminality from people in the church's you here see in traditional spirituality as when it comes a as a defence so go into my you can't sanctity of sanctuary you maybe you you pollute it or what goes to if she prison and then this is ja you saw indaba she was in the process of going to she must twice in prison this is something interesting a to see it as preclude but you already could speculate this after what could be the avenues her out for so it is something to see how our law keeps to be tested extent to the even limits by these money people who have who are using their money in political position to avoid accountability ja no most definitely and